From the Christian perspective, we are told not to rely on the ‘arm of flesh’, but on the Lord to protect us from the evils and dangers of the world. Obviously this does not excuse reckless disregard of danger. At some point survivalist preparations start to look a lot like relying on our own strength. Where does the balance lie between ‘righteous’ preparations and relying on our own strength to save us? How do you walk this line?
It's an interesting question. As for myself, all the talk of preparation and buying stuff, storing stuff and the like are geared towards not so much as simply staying alive, but rather to ensure that future generations of our offspring are ensured a quality of life equal or superior to our own. A great many survivalists are listening to their spiritual signals if you will, and are in fact very christian and actually pray that nothing will happen.
I refuse to stand by and watch my children, wife, and others I care about die needlessly from starvation, radiation sickness, or some disease that is either natural or man made. Any of these are a terrible, hard, slow death and I would much rather I would have to go through it than they.
There are many passages in the bible, if you will, that refer to self reliance. The lord helps those who help themselves, etc. Noah did something about the situation he was in too, as I recall.
If God or Jesus wants to step in and help make the world better, then I will be all the more secure in my thoughts. Will He come before or after my family dies? Will preparation allow me capacity to become a good samaritan, perhaps saving a few lives? Can I prevent something horrible from happening to an innocent bab(ies).
Can my preparation help to stabilize the community and help restore order and peace? Will I be able to fend off the hoards of evil-minded people bent on doing so as they wish to young women and children in time before Jesus returns? We dont know when he will return, right? Why not do some good in this rotten world in the mean-time?
It's an interesting question. As for myself, all the talk of preparation and buying stuff, storing stuff and the like are geared towards not so much as simply staying alive, but rather to ensure that future generations of our offspring are ensured a quality of life equal or superior to our own. A great many survivalists are listening to their spiritual signals if you will, and are in fact very christian and actually pray that nothing will happen.
I refuse to stand by and watch my children, wife, and others I care about die needlessly from starvation, radiation sickness, or some disease that is either natural or man made. Any of these are a terrible, hard, slow death and I would much rather I would have to go through it than they.
There are many passages in the bible, if you will, that refer to self reliance. The lord helps those who help themselves, etc. Noah did something about the situation he was in too, as I recall.
If God or Jesus wants to step in and help make the world better, then I will be all the more secure in my thoughts. Will He come before or after my family dies? Will preparation allow me capacity to become a good samaritan, perhaps saving a few lives? Can I prevent something horrible from happening to an innocent bab(ies).
Can my preparation help to stabilize the community and help restore order and peace? Will I be able to fend off the hoards of evil-minded people bent on doing so as they wish to young women and children in time before Jesus returns? We dont know when he will return, right? Why not do some good in this rotten world in the mean-time?
What a timely discussion.
I study the Bible and believe what God says. I use it as the basis for many of my decisions. I too, have been giving thought to "how much preparation is enough"... and at what point do I cross the line from "reasonable preparation" into "extremeism" where other priorities in my life get compromised as I devote large amounts of time, energy, money and other resources to preparing for a situation that has an uncertain probability of ocurring.
I have not reached a conclusion yet on how much is enough. This forum will be a catalyst to explore this subject more quickly, though. Keep in mind that my position on this matter is directed by the injunction: ...We ought to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29).
God can and will protect those who believe in his deliverance:
* A faithful man shall abound with blessings (Ps 28:20)
* ... my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus (Eph 4:19)
* [God] is able to do exceedingly abuandantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us (Eph 3:20)
* And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. (II Tim 4:18)
* I sought the Lord, and He heard me, And delivered me from all my fears. (Ps 34:4)
* In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid
What man can do unto me. (Ps 56:11)
* The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?
The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh,
They stumbled and fell.
Teach me Thy way, O Lord,
And Lead me in a plain path,
Because of mine enemies. (Psalm 27:1,2,11)
* I can do all things through Christ Which strengtheneth me. (Philippians 4:13)
* If God be for us, who can be against us? (Rom 8:31)
But, God gave us a brain to think with and the capability and responsibility to protect ourselves:
* A prudent man forseeth the evil, and hideth himself; But the simple [foolish] pass on, and are punished. (Prov 27:12)
* My People are destroyed for lack of knowledge... (Hosea 4:6)
I look forward to exploring this important subject with you on this discussion board.
Regards,
True North
I am a Christian and eveyone, that I know, at church rails at me for my preparations. I see that as rather ironic as they pay for home insurance, loan insurance, car insurance, life insurance, health insurance, etc., so WHY don't they rely on God for these concerns? You can spend a lot of money on "preps" and not approach what is being spent on insurance! As one of the previous posters stated, there are ample verses in the Bible that speak towards preparedness.
the reason they ridicule is because they know what a jam they will be in if you are right. instead of preparing they waste their money on useless items.
"Where does the balance lie between ‘righteous’ preparations and relying on our own strength to save us?"
Aiki, aren't you really asking, "Have I prepared sufficiently?" You want assurance that you've prepared enough, right?
This can only be answered by personal revelation to you. As you seek to live righteously and, generally, only after you are doing or have done the things you know you should already be doing, then you can qualify for the spirit of revelation. God's answer is different for each person, depending on their unique circumstances.
Another test of how you're "walking the line," is to ask yourself if you have any feelings of fear or insecurity? Those who are prepared spiritually and temporally will not have this fear, but will feel peace and security, a feeling granted to them by the Spirit.
Those are my immediate thoughts.
Hi,
I understand that this site is directed at a general audience, although many if not most of the visitors here will be LDS. I appreciate all the good advice here, but in many ways, I agree that some of these herculean efforts sounds like "overkill."
To me, the biggest preparation we can make is being temple-worthy Latter-Day Saints. Whenever events turn to such dire conditions, past prophets have indicated that we will go into the United Orders like Noah did with his ark. To get into the United Order, you'll have to have a temple recommend or at least be a full tithe-payer. Temporal preparations are important, but if you don't take care of the spiritual basics, all the food storage and shelters won't matter a bit.
Think about it? Why didn't more people get in the Ark? Why was Noah so hard-hearted that he wouldn't open the door and let others in? Maybe the folks who rejected the message didn't carry an "Ark Recommend."
Secondly, if you are an LDS person with kids who have received their patriarchal blessings, what do they say? Do your kids blessings indicate that they are going to live like "the Road Warrior" in a post-apocalyptic world? My kids blessings promise them wonderful, prosperous lives, filled with happiness, fulfillment, and wonderful opportunities.
When does one cross the line into "trusting the arm of flesh?" I'd say once you start building bomb shelters and collecting guns/ammunition, you're pretty much there.
On the other hand, if you follow the prophet's counsel to get out of debt, save a little, and store a supply of food, you'll be doing what's required of you and will merit the Lord's blessings.
It's not about bomb shelters...it's about faith.
Hello Greg,
As I read Genesis 7, I noticed that "the Lord shut him in". I believe that *God* shut the door of the ark so that Noah would not be able to open it when he heard the cries and begging of those outside. I don't think we can conclude that Noah was "hard-hearted that he wouldn't open the door and let others in." See http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen007.html#6 and read down to verse 16.
Do you have scriptural justification that all we're required to do to merit the Lord's blessings is "get out of debt, save a little, and store a supply of food"? As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jos/Jos024.html#15 I am to be a LIVING sacrifice. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom012.html#1 To be a living sacrifice, I must live.
Plenty of "good" people have died because they have been unwise. Plenty of "good" people have been victimized by our spiritual Adversary's henchmen. Different times bring different circumstances, and these differering circumstances require different responses. Consider Joseph's plight in Egypt. Who suffered more, those who prepared during the seven fat years, or those who didn't?
Life is not static, and shouldn't be governed by a limited set of rules (e.g. no debt, have savings, store food -- even though these are admirable guidlines). A list of rules is insufficient, since it cannot take into account the dynamic nature of life, and the whole variety of individual circumstances in particular.
Faith (pistis in the Greek) can often be correctly translated "believing", and believing is a verb. Verbs connote action. I take action to prepare in whatever ways *I* see fit to preserve myself and my family (and certain friends). I will live my life in a way to deserve God's blessing and protection, but will do what I feel I need to do to be peaceful. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Col/Col003.html#15 In this verse, "rule" means to "umpire". I use peace to determine my stopping point.
During the times when Jesus Christ walked the earth, the sword was a common weapon -- perhaps somewhat like our modern rifle. Would you say that Jesus Christ was wrong to ask his disciples to buy swords when circumstances justified it? http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk022.html#36
Regards,
True North
Greg,
You said: "My kids' blessings promise them wonderful, prosperous lives, filled with happiness, fulfillment, and wonderful opportunities."
Speaking for myself and repeating what we all have heard from others, often the happiest, most joyful times in life are during times of "suffering," be it during the time of the Great Depression, war, or the life of a penniless student working his way through school as he supports his growing family, working hard and doing what the Lord expects of him.
Anyone who believes in and carefully studies the prophecies of the prophets (ancient and modern) knows that the roughest times in human history are ahead of us. We're on the brink of the greatest suffering history books will ever record. That is reality. But we need not be doubters or afraid of these times that will try mens' souls.
Adequate spiritual and temporal preparation will save us, just as five of the ten virgins were saved.
Hello to all!
I hate to type! So generally I don't. When I wish to comment it's usualy more than I care to type. So thank you "True North" and "Joe" for typing it for me. If we study the life of David and even after he became king, it lays forth more than most "christians" would care to admit. Why is "a man after Gods own heart" fleeing his persecuters to live in a cave? Then to be joined by hundreds who also fled and banded together, this experience developed his skills that allowed him to be such a victorious warrior/king. He was obviously blessed by God. God thinks/does "outside the box" unlike most believers. He has missions for us that are so diverse and seem even strange at times (do to our limited perspective)...,but serve His purpose and can not be judged by "man" ,nor does he think He has to explain to (we) "His" creation. Just because our circumstances/(our perspective) are not perfect (in mans eyes) does not mean it's not Gods PERFECT will for us in that particular time and season. The evangelical body of believers have groped and now embraced this pitiful theology of prosperity(only).... it would seem they never read the word of God "if we are in Gods will/righteous" then we'll be rolling in cash w/o trials/tribulations.Haa!(there is so many directions to go with this....sorry)...anyways yaadiddiya! Fortunately for ya'll I'm already tired of typing.
"Ed Ruffin" Be encouraged most americans are "sheeple" at best and as always "mock what they don't understand" or in some cases what causes discomfort and reason to have to think for themselves, it is amazing God loves us, and is so merciful. Remember Noah was scoffed at for over a hundred years while he crafted God's floating zoo.
"Edward" with all do respect I wouldn't get in the habit of quoting something as though it were Holy scriptures....." God helps those who help themselves" ??
Gods love,Gods peace,Gods wisdom
to all who truly seek "Him"
-Steven- (MATT 6:33)
Btw...theres a huge diference between "fear" and
"commonsence",and "good judgement"...which comes with "Gods wisdom"... think about it(pray about it)......and read the life of David while your at it, and since we just past up "Hanukah" give a bit of time to studying the "Maccabees"...may be very interesting as well?
True North,
They who ignore the Lord's servants, the prophets (Amos 3:7), do not serve the Lord (John 13:20).
For LDS, the principle of active involvement in preparation and preservation of life, liberty, and property, is contained in Alma 60, which also contains some sage advice for them who advocate reliance soley on divine intervention.
Unidentified Usere, perhaps a direct quote or link would be helpful to those without access to those references.
Amos 3:7
John 13:20
Alma 60
The best one.
Luke 10:16
I guess this is what scares me most about surviving any kind of catastrophe -- that the other people who also survive will be nutty.
You can use the Bible to justify just about anything -- from slavery to child abuse. I don't want to rely on a book that was written by too many different people, translated too many different times, and changed (adding text, deleting text) whenever the church-in-power (or the king-in-power, as in King James) decided what was already there didn't suit their needs.
At any rate, I would find it much more helpful if everyone just spoke about how best to build shelters and what kind, water filtration systems and power supplies, etc. rather than throwing all sorts of Bible passages into the mix. We can all come up with Bible passages, or put down people who don't believe our particular belief or pray to one god or another, but that isn't helpful.
Re: "I would find it much more helpful if everyone just spoke about how best to build shelters and what kind, water filtration systems and power supplies . . ." Then, SissyGray, you have come to the right place. All those answers can be found in Joel Skousen's book, THE SECURE HOME. It's a whopper--the size of a telephone book. If you can't find the answers you seek there, you won't find them anywhere.
As for the Bible, where can you read more tales of survival than in the Bible? Noah building the ark. Job facing hard times. War. Preparations. Historical accounts of people's strong will and courage as they faced and overcame tremendous obstacles. No matter what religion you prefer, the Bible is filled with great survival tips besides spiritual guidance.
Greg and Joe,
I agree with both of you. The issue is not ‘how big is your bomb shelter’ but ‘the depth of your spirituality.’
However, I do find it interesting that Elder Holland spoke about bomb shelters in a recent CES fireside to the young adults of the LDS Church.
“So, setting aside fear of the future or concerns about the dimensions of a backyard bomb shelter, I am filled with awe, with an overwhelming sense of duty to prepare my life (and to the extent that I can, to help prepare the lives of the members of the Church) for that long-prophesied day, for that transfer of authority, for the time when we will make a presentation of the Church to Him whose Church it is.” Terror, Triumph, and a Wedding Feast on Sept 12, 2004
I do find this to be a rather interesting statement with under girding assumptions that the Church has no definitive statement on.
“Whenever events turn to such dire conditions, past prophets have indicated that we will go into the United Orders like Noah did with his ark. To get into the United Order, you'll have to have a temple recommend or at least be a full tithe-payer. Think about it? Why didn't more people get in the Ark? Why was Noah so hard-hearted that he wouldn't open the door and let others in? Maybe the folks who rejected the message didn't carry an "Ark Recommend.””
It seems to assume that (1) self-reliance will not be necessary before the implementation of the United Order, (2) the communication channels will be open and operating sufficient to organize into the United Order, (3) that a legal government will not exist that will prohibit such organization, (4) the Church as a whole will be saved and made ready to ‘redeem Zion.’ All of these assumptions, and several more I could elucidate, could possibly conflict with scriptural authority. Obviously, it reinforces the need to rely on the Holy Spirit in one’s interpretation of the scriptures and temporal preparation. Each family is to ‘prepare every needful thing’ as they see fit.
An interesting side note is that I suppose the first requirement for an ‘Ark Recommend’ was to be a member of Noah’s family. I am sure Noah would have opened the door if he had the power but the Lord shut it.
I know where my family will flee (Matt 24:15-19), we keep the supplies trimmed with regular family vacations and it is neither the home where we each individually reside nor will we be ‘carpooling’ with anyone (Matt 25:8-12 & Rev 13:17).
The idea of living from grocery store to table is relatively new. My great grandparents were farmers and probably most of yours were too. Some of my family in Michigan were still so close to the farm at heart that they kept a two year supply of food in the cellar as little as 30 years ago because it is what they were used to doing. What if there was no crop next year? They were self-reliant people that could have made it through if that had happened.
They also were prepared to defend themselves, knew how to deal with most illnesses, were very close with the neighbors and helped each other out. The things we are discussing are not so radical at all. It was a way of life not long ago and probably is a good thing if we are required to go back to it, at least to some degree. Arial